Joel Geiman: Prioritize your ability to reflect on your life, your decisions, your priorities. I'm somebody who likes to go pretty fast in most ways, like, "Let's move. Let's act." Doing something creates data that al-lows you to pivot and make better decisions. Reflecting, is something that wasn't as big of a priority for me until, probably, the last three years.
Drew Dinkelacker: Welcome to Bullseyes & Blind Spots. It's a series of The Marketing Accelerator Podcast, where chief executives share the pivotal decisions that define their leadership, and the blind spots that reshape their perspective. I'm your host, Drew Dinkelacker, President of Market-ingAccelerator.com. And today's guest is Joel Geiman, CEO of Melink Corporation. That's a global provider of energy efficiency solutions for commercial buildings.
Drew: Joel, welcome to Bullseyes & Blind Spots series.
Joel: Drew, thanks for having me. It's a pleasure.
Drew: Glad to have you. This will be fun. So let's just dive right in. The first question is a bullseye. Where in your career, have you had the opportunity to make a decision, or lead, where you had to make a decision and, boom, you found out later you just knocked it out of the park? You hit the bullseye. Tell me about that.
Joel: That's a great question, Drew. A time where I hit a bullseye in my career. Looking back, I would say, that there was a time while at Melink Corporation, about five or so years ago, where the organizational structure was at a bit of a crossroads. And it wasn't, necessarily, clear how the execu-tive team should be structured to help carry the organization through what, at the time, were the depths of the valley of COVID. And I think if I were to summarize the bullseye here, it was: Put all of your personal biases and ego aside to the absolute best of your ability, and think about what is best for the organization, the employees, the customers. And try to quickly create a plan and move forward and execute the plan, and know that good things will come for you personally, or your fam-ily, and the organization, as you succeed. So maybe to put it in a more simple phrase, deposit before you seek to withdraw, is a theme, that I think, has popped up a number of times throughout my ca-reer, while I'm thinking about it. It has occurred three or four times pretty pointedly, where there was a bit of a crossroads, heightened uncertainty, a lot of opportunity; and just a tough decision that had to be made. And I think removing your personal biases, thinking about incentives for yourself or your family personally, and putting that completely aside or at the bottom of the priority scale, has almost, I'd say… Batting a thousand, has always paid off in the medium to long term, versus thinking about options and having yourself be too big of a variable in the equation.
Drew: It's interesting what you said. First of all, the valley of COVID, everybody experienced that and had to make tough decisions during that. Now, whether or not it was during that time or not, usually when you're making these kinds of decisions, you don't know you're going to look back and say, "This is a bullseye decision." Could you just share with me a little bit more about what was the downside that could happen, versus what was the upside?
Joel: There was a time where we had transitions at the executive team. And because of some movement, some long-term, tried-and-true employees, who have earned a ton of stripes, were exit-ing the organization, it created a good number of gaps that needed to be filled. And not a lot of time to think with a tremendous amount of detail, where departments shift, where do the functions… Where should they lie? Where's the responsibility? What should titles be? What should compensa-tion be? And I think… Being more specific, there was a time where there's a two, three, four-week window to make some very critical decisions that impact the organization at large. And when you're in the middle, and your close peers and friends and colleagues are also in this equation, it's very easy to start thinking about what's in it for me, or maybe a really close peer, and how does this im-pact them. And having trust in the process that as you create some form of plan, and you start exe-cuting it, many of the details will become more apparent one month, one quarter, six months down the road. And if it feels like, "Man, what I would really like is an increase in some form of an incen-tive, or a perk, or a title change, or some form of recognition, then I feel like I could execute this plan," it would be really important to me. But having trust in the people around you, having trust in your board or your senior-most leaders, that they will look out for your best interest and the organization's interest, as you continue to stay committed, and perform, that has, here at Melink Corpora-tion, it's tried-and-true. And I'd say batting a thousand percent, that has always been the case, even if it has been even one or two years down the road where you're starting to see the fruits of the la-bor.
Joel: At that time, a business partner of mine and myself were thinking, "Man, what is the best way to carry through, climb out of the depths of this valley of COVID?" And I think, taking a step or two back and removing myself and the closest executives in that conversation, to say, "What is the path forward? What needs to be done? Who can practically do it? Let's put our nose to the grind-stone and go work for the next 3, 6, 18 months, to get back on track to where we know we can be," versus a, "What's my title? Should I be in a general manager role, or a vice president role? Or should I… I feel like I'm ready for an officer role. I'm basically acting as a COO. I really think that I'm deserved of that. And if that happens, then I'm ready for more responsibility. Then I'm ready to work, maybe, even harder, or try to work smarter." But instead, it's like, what needs to be done? Put the personal biases aside, the egos aside. Let's go accomplish the goals that we know we can; and good things will come.
Joel: And that's really what happened. I mean, there was a bit of a dance that took place. Are we perfectly on track? Have we done everything to the T, of what we thought we could do? Some days, yes; other days no. But as we were able to get back on track, good things eventually came in that time period, and a handful of others.
Drew: Your concept about make sure you have deposits before withdrawals, that's just not a finan-cial advice, that is just good, overall, advice, and good leadership advice. So, great stuff there. So now, leadership always… Every leader I've ever talked to, they've had blind spots. I talk about a blind spot, and they're going, "Come on, with me it's blind spots. I've got lots of them." So share with me, from your experience, where have you had a blind spot? How did it get revealed to you? Tell me about that.
Joel: That's a great question. Coming into the professional world, I think it was made abundantly clear that communication is very important, if not one of the most important characteristics to be successful, in pretty much any profession. And I think I had a bias… And maybe, I continue to still have this bias… That communication leans very heavily on speaking. And being a good communi-cator, you've got to be able to speak well. And you've got to be able to convey ideas. And you've got to be able to get up on stage in front of a bunch of people and communicate fearlessly and clearly. And so, I think entering into this space, say over 10 years ago, that was a bias that I had, of being a good communicator means being a good speaker. And I had a small, yet growing team, about three to four years into my time at Melink Corporation. And I think year four, year five, I had a departure of one of those employees, that I would say, was a key employee. They had a promotion or two, a high level of trust, they were a decent performer, most years, they tried hard and were just a great team player, great to have around, additive to the culture here.
Joel: And as they were exiting, there was some challenging feedback around our culture, communi-cation. It felt like a lot of it might have been my responsibility, or was pointed at me, even though this person was probably too kind to say, "Man Joel, he's just maybe not as good of a communicator as he thinks he is." And so, that kind of hit me hard. And it hit me hard because I felt like, "Man, I'm unaware of this dynamic." So I did a lot of reflection. I had some conversations with some key col-leagues as well. And I think, the punchline was, "Joel. Yeah, no. You're a pretty decent speaker. You may be good at it. You have a lot of room to improve as it pertains to your listening." Like, being an active listener, and actually understanding… "Seek to understand, than to be understood," the old saying. I don't think that I lived that value very well my first five years at Melink Corporation. And it's something that I actually think about pretty often. And I have this taped on the bottom of a monitor here: "Ask better questions more often." That's been there for five years now, here in the office.
Joel: So I think the blind spot was being an effective communicator remains, maybe, the number one priority for most roles. Because you need to convey ideas, you need to receive information, convey information, explain and celebrate great things that are happening. Also convey things that, maybe, aren't meeting the mark, and there is, maybe, some room for improvement. But it's not just speaking. It's being a good active listener, understanding, asking follow-up questions to really clari-fy the intent. And that was something that hit me pretty hard, probably three, four years into my management experience. Feeling like, "Man, I actually might be a pretty subpar communicator, de-spite feeling like I can speak well." That's, at best, half of communication, if not a quarter of com-munication. It's more important to be a really great listener. And that was a very big blind spot that I had for the first good portion of my management career.
Drew: Wow, thanks for sharing that. I completely agree. Just because you're a great communicator, and you can talk great, doesn't mean you're a great leader. There's been plenty of great leaders that are quiet communicators. And those are typically the ones that are excellent listeners. And so, what I found fascinating about what you've shared here, Joel, is the initial feedback was, "Oh, well. You're up in the communication game," and one always thinks that's the verbal side. But through introspection, you realized or discovered, that it's the listening side. And then, here's the remarkable thing: you worked on it. Besides the Post-it note, do you have any tips for leaders to be better lis-teners?
Joel: The simple phrase, that I think, helped it further click for me… And for the record, I'm still working on this. I don't think you ever arrived at perfect communication. So I am still actively working on this. The simple phrase, that I think, helped it fully click for me, being an achiever and somebody who's very goal-oriented, is the simple phrase: listening is a skill. Listening is a skill. It can be refined. It should be refined. It should improve over time. It is not just as simple as… I've got a litter of little kids at my house, and they can listen. They generally understand.
Joel: My littlest is one, and we call her Tank Tank. Tank Tank can listen. She understands when she's not supposed to be eating something. But she will evolve as a listener. And it's important to remind yourself that once you get to an adult, whether you're 18, or 25, or 45, you're not done yet. It's a skill that needs to be honed and refined over time. And I think, individuals like myself that has this certain mold, I did not think of it that way until maybe six or so years ago as a, "You can get better at this. You should seek to get better at this. And it is truly a skill." And if you don't treat it as such… Maybe the word is lazy, maybe it's naive… But being a very effective communicator, most of that, is being a really effective listener. And listening, is a skill, and it's something that you should be intentional about, whether it's a Post-it note, or seeking feedback, or talking to people, practicing certain strategies, and just creating good habits that unlock deeper levels of communication.
Drew: Yeah. Well, and it all comes down to, true listening is work. It takes effort. It takes attention. You're burning brain power focusing on what the person is saying, versus calculating what your re-sponse is going to be. And that's part of that skill, is shifting gears to finish the listening before you respond. So that's good stuff. Really, really good insight, Joel. So before… Oh, you want to say something? Go ahead.
Joel: I do, yeah. I don't want to put you on the spot too much, but being the host of a podcast, you probably are in the top quartile, or 1% of listeners all time. Do you have any insight you could pro-vide to somebody like me, as a listening skill, or a tactic? How do you think about it? I'm sure that your listening approach and your skill has improved, I bet, at least… A lot, or a little; but some… Having a lot of great conversations.
Drew: Yeah. Well, thanks for that. I've been podcasting since COVID, since the valley of COVID. And that has certainly helped. And I've been married for 40 years, so you have to have some level of communication skillsets. But we just recently went to a marriage conference… Which I recom-mend, no matter how long you've been married, or how short you've been married. Go to a marriage conference. They're usually all about communication. And one of the most powerful listening tools I've learned, is just what we simply call, acknowledgment. I'm listening to you. I respond back what I think I heard you say. And then, at that point, it's like, "Joel, I heard you say X, Y, and Z are your concerns here." And then… This is powerful, "Did I get that right?" And now, what happens is that person feels heard. Especially, if you got it right. But you're vulnerable enough to say, "Hey, maybe I didn't get it right. Correct me if I didn't get that intention right." When you know you're going to acknowledge what this person is saying to you, instead of just react to it, you're going to acknowledge it. Now, you have to listen to say, "I got to be able to parrot part of this back." That's real listening. And then you just follow that up with, "Did I get that right?" And that's one of those skills that you just work into your constant conversation. "What I hear you saying is this. Did I get that right?" before you go on to your response to it. So that's what I would say. So thanks for asking that question. Nobody's put me on the spot before, so very good. Very good.
Joel: Well, what I'm hearing you say is, I didn't put any of my laundry away in the last week, honey. Is that correct?
Drew: Yeah.
Joel: That's why you're mad? Okay. Well, you're right. I'll do that right now.
Drew: What would you like me to do? How can I best take care of that for you?
Joel: Right. Right. That's funny.
Drew: Learn to cook and make the bed. That helps. All right. So before we go to our final question, though, I have a quick message for our audience. If today's conversation has you thinking about your own Bullseyes & Blind Spots, well, I've created a companion resource designed for chief ex-ecutives. It's called, The Bullseyes & Blind Spots Accelerated Guide, a fast… It's just a 10-minute read… That helps you cut through marketing fog, confront blind spots, and gain the clarity you need to lead with confidence. Download the guide at, BullseyesAndBlindSpots.com.
Drew: Now, Joel, the final question here. If you could go back… Normally, sometimes I say 30, 40 years to some of the chief executives I'm talking to, but I'm not going to do that with you. Let's just go back 20 years. I'm not sure where that lands us. But if you could go back 20 years, and give yourself some tips about wisdom about the future in choices that you're going to make in career or personal life, what would be some of the tips you would share with Joel Jr.?
Joel: That's a great question. So if we're leaning it towards professional tips and advice, my "Buy Bitcoin and sell at $100,000" is a non-factor that I'm not allowed to say, so I won't say that. I think I would tell myself: Prioritize your ability to reflect on your life, your decisions, your priorities. I'm somebody who likes to go pretty fast in most ways, like, "Let's move. Let's act." Doing something creates data that allows you to pivot and make better decisions, so let's just go. And I think that re-flecting is something that wasn't as big of a priority for me until, probably, the last three years, two, three years, of really carving out intentional time to reflect.
Joel: So I think I would give myself that advice. And then the add-on to that would be: As a result of that reflection, be more intentional about how you plan on spending your time, even if it's just on an annual rhythm. Like, take the New Year's resolution, and take that seriously. It doesn't have to be 50 items long, or one item long, or lose weight, or whatever the thing is that's the cliché. It doesn't have to be that. It could be the culmination of your reflection. What is important to you in the next year? Be intentional. Set a reasonable yet stretchy goal for yourself, or series of goals, that you can measure yourself against. And then be disciplined, through reflection, through your behaviors on a daily basis. I think that would be the advice that I would give myself, just to probably pump my brakes a little bit. Joel: But it's a hard question to answer, Drew. Because I'm actually abundantly grateful for my life. I feel very, very… I'm very thankful for the people that I'm around, the things that I get to do each day, my family, health-wise. There's a lot of great things that I feel very fortunate that I've been able to have this existence that I'm having now. So I would be very cautious to not say something that would push me in a different path, because I'm just grateful for where I'm at in my life and the peo-ple that I get to share it with.
Joel: So, probably, just pump the brakes a hair. Be more intentional. Set meaningful goals that are realistic yet stretchy. And then be disciplined to go get them.
Drew: And that introspection piece, is so important. And you said you really didn't start grasping that till three or four years ago. You can answer this… If you don't want to answer that, that's fine… But was there a moment, was there a scenario, when it's like you realized, "Oh, okay. I need to real-ly stop and slow down and think about this"? Was there a scenario around that that triggered it, that brought it to the forefront?
Joel: Yeah. I think so. I think I was gearing up to take on the Chief Operating Officer role, officially. And I had a wise mentor ask me the question, something to the extent of, "How are you going to treat this role differently? How are you going to behave?" "You need to behave differently in this next role, right? What got you here, won't get you there. So how are you approaching this different-ly?" And I think my response was, probably, a bit chaotic. And then the follow up was, "Okay. Hang on. Let's reflect on what are the things that got you here, and what are some behaviors, or habits, or things that you think were really helpful to arrive at the current state?" And it was like, "You know what? That's a pretty good point. I feel like I've been working a lot, and I've been working… Trying to be smarter." But I think the words that I spoke were, "I don't think I can work much harder. I don't think I have much more hours in the day to have more output." And this mentor said, "That's not what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting you reflect and think how you can work smarter. Because in this next role, I'm not so certain if working harder is the right decision."
Joel: But in every role that I had had leading up to that point, it was ring that rag of weekly schedule harder, and find more time, and grind a little bit harder, and maybe be a better delegator so you can have more time to go work harder. And it was the first time it was like, "Man, I don't know if I am working smart enough, because I am not spending time to reflect on the past month, the past quar-ter, the past year." I'm not looking at my scorecard in a golf term and saying, "Hey, which holes did I screw up on on that round? And what did I do… I'm not doing that in my life?" And I'm a really bad golfer, so that's a poor analogy. But it was a moment where I was being elevated into this next role, with more responsibility, and higher expectations, and all that. And it was, "Man, how am I going to deliver this? And what should I be doing differently? And what am I doing today?" And I need to be working way smarter, because I know I need to be working smarter, but what does that actually mean practically, versus just, "Oh, I'll just find four more hours a week, and that'll do it"? I'm out of those hours. They're kind of gone.
Drew: You've shared the value of having a mentor, and the impact that that has had on you, and someone that asks you those tough questions. That might be one of the tips you tell Joel Jr.: Get yourself a mentor. If you don't have one, it's always great to have somebody that's a little bit further down the road that you can tap on the shoulder and say, "Hey, what about this?" Never a bad idea at all.
Drew: So, alright. Well, that was excellent, Joel. Thank you so much for sharing your journey, and the bullseyes that gave you confidence, and the blind spots that shaped your growth. Your candor and insight remind us that leadership's not about perfection. It's about learning, it's about adapting, and staying true to what matters most.
Drew: Subscribe to our podcast today, and find out where your bullseyes and blind spots are with the resources at BullseyesAndBlindSpots.com.